How can you tell what caste someone is from, if everyone looks the same?
If a person simply moved somewhere they weren’t known, would they escape the shackles of Untouchability!
These are, but a few of questions that some of my American friends have asked me when I have tried to introduce to them the subject of untouchability and caste system in India. The reason caste system eludes non-Indians is because of their inability to distinguish the oppressor and the oppressed in terms of skin color, ethnicity, religion, or other such tangible traits, or even wealth, which they have witnessed in racism, colonialism and other religious and territorial oppression. However using a simple analogy (a high school in America) I will try to explain how oppression and discrimination can be achieved within a homogenous group which is what caste system is, where ethnicity, skin color and even religion are the same, while also answering the above two questions.
At a high level, lets make five distinct groups in our High School and have each student belong to one and only one group.
- Academic Group
- Sports Group
- Arts Group
- Voluntary Group
- and finally a non-conforming group – kids who don’t fall into any of the above groups, but because of exclusion are still in a group of their own (though not a cohesive one)!
Further lets divide each group into sub groups
- Academic group based on the subject: Math Group, Physics Group, Chemistry Group and so on
- Sports Group based on the game they play: Football Group, Soccer Group, Basketball Group, La Cross, Track, Cheer Leading Group
- Arts Group based on their medium: Theater, Singing, Dancing, Painting, Sculpting and so on
- Voluntary Group based on their field of service: Church, Old People, Children and Young Adults, Poverty and so on.
- It is not very easy to make sub groups out of Non-conforming group of kids as they are more of disjointed individuals and at most form groups of just two or three.
I hope, I haven’t stretched your imagination too much and that this division of students is very easy to accept and assume. Further equating the Groups to Castes in India, Sub Groups to Sub Castes, High School to a village or town and the school district to India should round up the analogy.
Now using this imaginary school and the school district let me answer the first question.
Question 1: How can you tell what caste someone is from if everyone looks the same?
Lets say, I am a visitor to our imaginary high school described above and have been told about the existence of such groups. At first glance my question would be, but all these teens look alike, Freckles, Braces, weird hair dos and dressing, how would anyone be able to tell what group each kid belongs to? And if it was me 8 years ago (when I first came to the US) it would have been really tough, ’cause not only do these kids have similarities like freckles, braces, hair dos and clothes … but as a brown guy who just stepped into an American high school, I would only see a sea of white kids and wouldn’t be able to tell one from the other.
Similarly, it is quite understandable that as a non-Indian you would not be able to perceive beyond a sea of brown people, dressing and operating in a way that you are not accustomed to. It would be very tough for you to understand how these people are able to distinguish themselves based, not on skin color or wealth, but a social code.
However just ’cause me, as a visitor can’t match kids with the sub groups they belong to, doesn’t mean that these kids can’t! Each of their movements is defined by their sub group that they belong to. Their sub group dictates whom they associate with, where they would group up before the school doors are opened, where they sit in the cafeteria, where they gather after the regular school hours to practice their sport, develop their art, discuss their subject matter, volunteer or hide. So, they are very aware of where each of the other kid fits and thereby interact with them based on those rules and boundaries.
Likewise, Indians have also learned (and they have had a couple of thousand years to hone this system) as to where they stand in the caste hierarchy! All they need to figure out is that, someone is either from from their sub group or not, t and if they are not, then just keep an eye on which sub group they associate wit, thereby finding the caste. Hopefully this answered the first question as to how Indians can figure out the caste of fellow Indians. Now for the second question.
Question2: If a person simply moved somewhere they weren’t known, would they escape the shackles of Untouchability!
At the outset it does seem so, very simple, pack your bags and move to where no one knows you and you would escape the shackles of untouchability, and it would be true too, provided untouchability and caste system was only being practiced in this one village or town. However it is not so.
Let me at this juncture reiterate a key character, homogenous nature/inclusiveness of caste system (that I have mentioned earlier) and also introduce a new character of Caste system, determining of the caste of an individual based on birth. These two traits will further help us answer our second question:
- Castes system as mentioned, is different from Racism or Simple Slavery in the sense that Caste system is practiced within a group of homogenous people. In our school analogy we can enforce this homogenous grouping by maintaining that all of the population that is in the school district have come through the school system and that their kids and grand kids are following suit. Hence their common bond is the school system. With respect to caste system the common bond is religion.
- The second and probably the most important trait of Indian Caste system, is the inability for people to move across castes. An individual is born into a caste. He does not grow to be of a certain caste or move into one which he likes or is capable of, but an individual’s caste is determined at birth, based on the caste of the parents. In our school analogy, we can achieve a similar restriction by curtailing freedom of movement through different groups, and determining a student’s group based on the groups that his parents were in. It might seem weird to force a child into a group/sub group that his/her parents were in but that is exactly how it has to work if we are to use our school analogy.
Just to prove that classification through birth is not such a far fetched idea, let me walk through how this system would come into vogue:
In every school these groups/sub Groups would be in vertical structure where one group or sub group is favored more than the other. If this were to be in fact true then it wouldn’t be far fetched to see that parents and grand parents of the highest group/sub group trying everything in their means to make sure that their wards stay in the most popular groups, and passing on required valuable skills only to them. This would also mean that parents and grandparents of the next highest group are scrambling to secure the future of their wards in that available group and so on until by exclusion the last group just doesn’t have any options.
And when so much is dependent on a group it would also be easy to visualize as to how marriages and alliances would happen within “equals” (same group members). At first it would be a lose system with decent movement between groups. Now add to it some devious methods adopted by those in the highest group to give administrative, religious and legal sanction to such group system and then systemically restricting marriages within the same subgroups, and lo and behold we would see a full blown caste system in all its gory in our American school district. And within a few generations the whole school district will effectively reflect the caste system in Indian society as it stands today after evolving through thousand of years.
To bring this into an Indian context: Initially there was only class (labor) based divisions: Brahmins (Priests), Kshyatriyas (Warriors) and Vaishyas (Commoners) and there was even movement between these three groups. Later, the Brahmins realized the sway they had and started marrying only within their kind, so that they could continue and pass on their supremacy to their progeny. Now everyone else started mimicking them and scrambled to retain whatever position they had in the society and this led to caste system. At this juncture you will realize that I have left out the Sudras (Servants) and Untouchables and have only mentioned the original three Hindu castes, and that would be because Sudras and Untouchables don’t make their appearance until later.
As caste system started to materialize and gain populariy, there were numerous arguments and collisions between Brahmins and some of the stronger Kshatriya clans for supremacy, which Brahmins eventually won. They then relegated these Kshatriyas to become Sudras (slaves) and declared that the only purpose in life for this new group was to serve the other three castes. And to this mix (Sudras) was added everyone else who was ever against caste system and was defeated by the Brahmins, thereby increasing the number of groups and the population of Sudras.
And as for untouchables, they come still later and comprise of defectors from Hindu religion, who embraced Buddhism and other religions to escape from caste atrocity, and were at a later point in time won over by force and deception.
Final nail in the coffin was driven, when religious and legal books were revised by Brahmins to deny all rights (right to education, right to bear arms, right to property or even human dignity) to Sudras and Untouchables so that they could never rise up in rebellion. Given this divine status, caste system became unquestionable and Brahmins got established as Bhudevtas (Gods on Earth) and secured a caste based society where they sit on top and reign supreme. And, that in a nutshell explains the origin and development of caste system.
Now for the question that I’ve been attempting to answer: If a person simply moved somewhere they weren’t known, would they escape the shackles of Untouchability!
Consider the example of a student from the non-conformist group in our school and assume that he has taught himself a sport and would like to move to a different school where he is not known, to start afresh. To begin with, he would face all kinds of difficulties to just transfer from one school to the other, but even if he were to be able to move to a new school … he would only be able to live his new life, utmost, till the first parent teacher meeting at which point his actual group affiliation would be exposed by means of his parents and he would be an out caste even in this new school! Similar is the fortune of an untouchable in India. On arrival at a different place within India, (assuming he is able to tackle practical problems like funds to relocate himself, his family, find new employment, boarding etc) an untouchable would only be able to mask his caste until he encounters an occasion where his caste is demanded (explicitly or implicitly), and believe me, he would encounter plenty of such instances where his caste would be demanded. Once his caste is identified, society would loose no time in relegating him to his untouchable state and in the process also punish him (in all possible ways – physical, emotional, financial and economical) for even attempting to break the caste system!
Hopefully this analogy helped you in understanding the caste system in India and its pertinence. For those of you who are interested in knowing more, please refer to the following:
- YouTube video titled, ‘India Untouched – stories of a people apart‘ to get a sense of how caste is still pertinent in India
- Short paper, CASTES IN INDIA: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development by Dr. Ambedkar for further information on origins of caste system.
- The books The Untouchables Who were they and why they became Untouchables and Who were the Shudras
And as always please feel free to contact me if you are interested in knowing more about Real India!
Wow, this is a really helpful explanation. Thanks!
Thanks Alseta. I am glad my explanation and analogy helped you gain better understanding of Caste System and Untouchability!
If an American moved to India and decided to live there, is there a “caste” so to speak for them? Could a non-Indian mix and mingle with all castes or are they supposed to gravitate toward one and stay there?
I will start with the last question first:
Q2: Could a non-Indian mix and mingle with all castes or are they supposed to gravitate toward one and stay there?
Ans2: The simple answer is – You can mingle with all castes.
But the complex answer is the question – how woudl you do it? Because the castes you will mingle with will be limited by the Indians that have invited you over there or whom you make as friends first. So lets say an Indian friend of you took you back to India then it goes without saying that you will be mingling with his family and friends who probably are all from his caste or are of that same level.
Now even if you were to land in India as a free bird (I never recommend women doing this) and start to make friends, you may be able to make your first few friends of whatever caste they come from but your future friends who will be introduced to you by these first friends will be their friends and family so overall your friends will be of these caste groups.
So you may want to mingle and everything but you will certainly gravitate towards the caste or coupel of castes where you make your early friends. And in most cases the friends you make first will be from the upper castes so you will gravitate towards them.
Q1: If an American moved to India and decided to live there, is there a “caste” so to speak for them?
Ans1: As and AMerican if you were to move to India you woudl just be an AMerican who has moved there. And as explained above you will mingle with one caste or a few at the most buyt you will never becoem of their caste. If you take your living in India seriously and say marry someone from there, then you will not becoem of their caste but you will be treated like however their family is treated as. Your children though will be of that caste. You personally though will enter, live and die as a foreigner.
Can you simply tell a persons caste by their last name? Well done on bringing this to light for the westerners with an interest!
really good way to expain and make people understand.
Now really!!! Ok I’ll read once again.
Are these personal theories?
1. In a sample of people, you can’t tell if someone’s from a particular caste until they tell you. Period.
2. If someone is solely trying to escape caste system, why would s/he tell their caste??? Moreover the high school analogy doesn’t work here. U shud use some other 🙂
Some editing (ok a lot) would make the article a better read.
I read the rest of your articles, got me curious, where in India were you living before moving to USA
Above comment was provided to me via FB. I have pasted it here and am adding this reply for the benefit of other readers.
Dear Ashish,
Thanks for your comments. Let me see if I can answer what you have asked.
1. Yes, Most readers, specially Indians do a double take on my posts ’cause the explanation is very novel and the analogies simple but pregnant.
2. These theories are by Dr. Ambedkar (Architect of our (Indian) constitution and messiah of the Indian untouchables. But the analogy as mentioned is mine and as original as it can be.
3. In a sample of people, non-Indians can’t but Indians can guess what caste someone is from, by Name, Dressing, mannerisms and such. I agree that in a city where everyone is dressed up and going to work or eating at restaurants, you may not be able to tell someones caste, but that interaction is only superficial, as soon as you try to make stronger bonds, caste will be pried out of you.
3a. You talk about someone not having to divulge their caste as if it is a personal choice. No sir, it is not. When meeting anyone new, caste is guessed, assessed by beating around the bush, prodded by divulging their own caste and saying how proud they are of being of that caste, all in anticipation that the other party will divulge theirs. It is a need so that they can treat the new person by what their caste is worth.
3b. My analogy works wonders with some imagination and by keeping the historic perspective of when these castes were formed. Now in my analogy of the school system it might seem implausible as you might be seeing it in this day and age and wondering how such hereditary system can be set up. However, it should be real easy to imagine it, when we realize that the caste system and its hereditary nature was fixed when whole of India was in an unscientific, ritualistic and superstitious era. Even today we hear,all the time, as to how such and such a party or govt agency here in the US has been able to pass a bill or law and inherently has some hidden special interest group benefiting from the same and such, all when a thousand eyes are scrutinizing them. So visualizing how the religious and legal books were altered to provide divine origin to caste system in the days of the past, when only Brahmins had the right to religion and education shouldn’t be difficult for any one with even a little imagination.
4. As for the editing, wasn’t sure if I had to honor the comment by you … but being the novice that I am, I will address it. I take pride in getting the point across in a way that no one before me has and getting it out fast. I am sure I will improve over time and make my posts examples of grammatical greatness, but for the time being I am content that I have been able to convey the message and that is what matters to me.
5. Your last comment though in passing is the most significant. You have asked me where in India I am from. I highly doubt that you are genuinely interested in finding, where in India I am from, but your interest, rather is to hear an answer, which would be along the lines of, I am from a remote village, from the state that is the epitome of backwardness and disorder so that you can heave a sigh of relief and stick to the standard response that all Indians give when a discussion on untouchability arises. Which is that: Caste System and Untouchability is a thing of the past or a thing practiced in the most remote areas of the country (as in unheard of, unseen, unreachable villages, which are yet to see the light bulb). And thereby you want to brand me as, from that remote part, and hence, one of those few that had to endure untouchability and hence prove that untouchability is not the norm, and of course that you dearly sympathize with me for such injustice but don’t actually see a need to discuss the topic of caste and untouchability, cause in you eyes, finding traces of Untouchability and caste system in modern India will yield no more success that trying to find a live Dodo bird! Unfortunately that is not the answer, my family comes from one of the biggest cities in India, and I have, through my career lived in three different cyber cities and have still faced or know of people who have faced caste based discrimination in these cities. Forget about India, check this link and it will be clear that caste system is practiced by Indians even in the US – http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/03/us/03chicago.html?emc=eta1.
As to the practice of selective feoticide here is another link of the same happening in the US as per a study by UCSF – http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2011/05/ucsf_study_indian_females.php
I am willing to cut some slack here and assume that you are in this state of disillusion because (am assuming) you have been in the United States for most of your recent past … but in general, below lines by Dr.Ambedkar from his book: The Untouchables Who were they and why they became Untouchables explain as to why you would deny caste Untouchability vehemently and lie through your teeth! Ironically this is exactly the post preceding mine which talks to Hindus being … Oompa Loompa Plumpa and with no introspection, which you have agreed to, albeit making fun of it and blaming it on dietary habits.
“That the Hindus should not have undertaken such an investigation (to explain the origin of Untouchability) is perfectly understandable. The old orthodox Hindu does not think that there is anything wrong in the observance of Untouchability. To him it is a normal and natural thing. As such it neither calls for expiation nor explanation. The new modern Hindu realizes the wrong. But he is ashamed to discuss it in public for fear of letting the foreigner know that Hindu Civilization can be guilty of such a vicious and infamous system or social code as evidenced by Untouchability”
And it is no different even today. So please feel free to re-watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_UnVZT0-0k to see how widespread Untouchability is in India and if you still can’t see the problem we all know why!
cool story bro
Tx for leaving this link in the Globe and Mail; I’ve learned a lot reading here. Thank you for taking the time.
Regards and Merry Christmas,
Sam
Thanks for appreciating my post. I am glad you were able to get some answers for questions on caste and untouchability. Please do forward the same to friends and colleagues who you think might be interested in this topic.
Merry Christmas to you too,
Sidd
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I was always taught there there was the “proper” caste system and that there was the “current” caste system. Why you described was the “current” birth-based caste system, while the “proper” caste system is based on individuals tendencies, abilities, interests, etc. and pays no heed to birth.
Also, how does the caste system handle new-comers? or to use your analogy, how does the school’s social structure handle international exchange students?
Hi Nikhil,
Thanks for the comment.
You are right. In the beginning people were able to move across the castes ’cause it was more based on the occupations that they used to perform. And at that time it was called Varna Vyavastha. But, that ‘Proper’ or original caste system you are talking about is pretty ancient in the context of caste system. It was pre buddhist era of 6th Century BCE. By the time Buddha was around caste system was already based on birth. So for all practical purposes, (due to the practice having a history of a couple of millennium) caste system is based on birth. And I for one want to expose the inconsistencies in the society that is current. Resting on the laurels of how perfect it was 2000 years ago (if it ever was) ain’t going to help my people who are being killed/raped and discriminated against by the dozens every single week.
Very interesting question on how does caste system handle new-comers – the answer is it can’t, It can be proved by a simple question? How many foreigners do you know of that converted to Hinduism? While there might be some foreigners following some Gurus, or of the Hare Krishna group, their acceptance of Hindu religion is superficial. They actually don’t become Hindus. They just follow some Spiritual directions as given by that group’s head, which for all its worth are the doctrines of Buddha presented as Hindu philosophy. So an international student that comes, studies at the school, ideally just stays an international student and goes back. However, the student may be absorbed by only one method … through marriage. He/She by virtue of marriage may be absorbed into that caste if it benefits the family (see example 1 & 2 below). I say may be absorbed into the caste because there are instances where the couple would be kicked out by the family and the caste and they will have to adopt the international students creed and eventually just leave with them or face grave consequences (See example 3).
Example 1: Indira Gandhi and Feroze Khan. Nehru family is a Hindu Brahmin family, Feroz Gandhi is a Muslim (our international student). Marrying him as is (with him staying a Muslim) was going to ruin the chances for Nehru and Indira to continue with their political ambitions. Step in Gandhi, he adopted Feroze, which meant that Feroze became a Hindu and also got the Last name of Gandhi that carried tremendous political value. He himself probably was treated as a muslim and followed it too but he was an asset to Nehru family, so was accepted and his progeny continued to be the Brahmins that they always were ’cause that was the most beneficial of both castes and also cause they were in a position to continue with it.
Example 2: We will continue with the Gandhi family. Rajiv Gandhi married Sonia. She is in this case our international student. But was accepted and became a Hindu. I don’t think she raised the value of the Gandhi family at the time of marriage, but she at least did not degrade it, so was accepted. And the kids Rahul and Priyanka stay within the caste of the Gandhi clan.
Example 3: Lets through some contrast in here. Check out this LINK. It is a case where an Indian boy, married a black girl, Sparkle. In this case as a rule Sparkle can become a Hindu by following her Husband’s religion and become part of his caste or at least their kids could have. However Sparkle’s Father-In-Law, Chiman Rai, a Mathematics Professor at Alcorn State University, Mississippi, thought that this marriage brought the family stock down. Hope you understand what it means. For the unaware, it means that he is ashamed that his family will be looked down upon by his caste and he may not be able to get his other kids married off at a level he wants because this marriage would reflect on his caste pride. And all this, led to him getting her killed. In short nothing short of an honor killing, just that it happened in the US. So in this case, while Sparkle could have become a Hindu and a member of Mr. Rai’s caste. She was not allowed to ’cause she didn’t benefit the family, rather she had the potential to drag the family’s status down in the eyes of their caste members.
Summary:
1. Caste system as known to Indians over thousands of years has been based on birth. It was in its initial stages that it was actually labor based. But eventually it spread over the whole country and reaffirmed the birth based conditional caste system.
2. Hinduism must have all followers in a caste. You can’t be a Hindu without a caste. And since it has no place for a convert, it doesn’t seek them. It can’t and hasn’t been a missionary religion. And proof is in the pudding? Do you know anyone who has actually converted to Hinduism? They may become vegetarians by following some Guru’s advice, or carry a statuette of the elephant God for good luck, or even better practice the the concepts of Kamasutra in the bedroom and pick bits and pieces of Hindu religion. But can’t become Hindu because they have no caste. So no foreigner can ever convert to Hinduism in its true sense. The only way is to marry one and get accepted by the family first and then by the caste.
Let me know if this explanation answered your questions.
Thanks,
Sidd
Excellent article, well explained etc. I guess my only question is, if a westerner were to attempt to “become” (not the best word to describe it, i know, but just bear with me yeah?) a hindu, in order to do so, they would have to conform to the rules of the caste system yes? But then, what caste would they be?
Thanks for your encouraging comment!
This is the same question that I answered for the previous comment I received from Nikhil …
An outsider can’t become a Hindu, or convert to Hinduism. There is no caste to put them in. However if you were to marry one and beget children, they could become caste members of your spouse, provided your spouse’s family and caste accept you and you guys continue to live as Hindus.
Now some people will argue that they are following a Hindu guru or a teaching that is touted a Hindu philosophy and hence they are practicing Hinduism. For all its worth maybe they are, but it is only at an individual level, for their satisfaction only, and depends on how gullible the follower is. There is no social value to it. As far as real Hindus are concerned you are a nobody ’cause you don’t belong to a caste. They can’t place you or relate to you in their intimate social life. For them you are just a foreigner who is smitten by their religion!
was Feroz a Muslim or Parsi ( followers of Zoroastrianism which preceded Islam)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism
molgen
Dear Molgen,
I just looked up online on Feroze Gandhi and you are correct, Wikipedia does mention ‘Firoz Jahangīr Gāndhī’ as born in a Parsi family from Gujarat. And you are also correct about who the Parsis are – ‘According to tradition, the present-day Parsis descend from a group of Zoroastrians of Iran who immigrated to India during the 10th century AD.’
Thanks for correcting my statement.
However I do wanna reaffirm that this example of Feroze Gandhi as someone who married a Hindu (Indira Gandhi) and remained an outsider still holds true. So even if we replace the fact that he is a Parsi, the explanation that outsiders can’t convert into Hinduism still stand true.
-Sidd
Sidd; Bravo with your blog. Hopefully it prompts Hindus to reflect and liberate themselves from a social injustice that has been perpetrated since centuries.
The problem with the purported rg-vedic justfication of the caste system being of divine origin with the four classes, or varnas, of society emerging from the mouth, arms, thighs and feet of the “cosmic being”, is that it does not explain why the cosmic being would be patently unjust and fraudulent towards the very first of these four individuals before they even accrued any karmic penalty which is the usual explanation given for caste by birth. One would think that the first man born in the “lowest” caste would ask the creator, … “Why me”? Defies logic.
Partly, the chains that the “higher” castes are bound in, are social stigma and just being completely oblivious to the indignity and inhumane experiences of the lowest caste.
thanks man this help me alot but my real question is If you are not Indian and have no interest in becoming Hindu but want to live in remote village in India would the locals expect you or treat you in different way i mean like low class, because here in the west or anywhere else in the world people treat or categories them self base on wealth and so on. im talking about the community interaction when it came to the topics like Dating, sports and friends making. i am mix anyway half black have Latino.
Hi,
Being an outsider you won’t be treated as a lower caste. They will also not treat you as one of their own. You might still have trouble finding accommodation and companionship with upper castes. Dating – there is nothing like dating in the remote village that you are talking about. And if you are in a big city you might be able to make friends of the opposite sex. Now whether they will go all the way and date you as they would here, I am not sure, and only because you are an outsider. In the remote village I think you can make friends. Because of your novelty many there will try to be friends with you. Now with regard to sports, most village back there have an agenda to get by day to day. So am not sure what sports you are talking about. Playing or watching? If it is playing, you might be able to play cricket with the boys in the village and if lucky they might even have a group of guys who meet up in the late evening hours to play a game of volleyball. Watch sports – you might be able to watch a lot of cricket or at least hear it on the Radio, may be at the local tea shop. If you are looking for a sports bar that has beer and flat screen, you may find the village really lacking in such facilities.
Thanks.
thanks man i knw so little about the world of cricket i play Soccer. anyway im guessing since english the second language in India it’s not gonna be too hard to pick up ladies or is it? by the way im going to a town in the state Odisha is there same do’s and don’ts that u think i should knw? and what about the authority i went to Uganda once and the Police are totally corrupted.
And what about jatis?
I think there is a strict definition of what Jati means. But contemporary Indians interchange, Jati, Varna, Caste and other words interchangeably. At my level I only explain the concept of castes and Untouchability and don’t really dwell upon the nomenclature. So hopefully I am able to achieve that goal.
So if you have a specific question about Jatis? I request you to elaborate and I will answer if possible or may have to direct you to some other scholars who can speak to it.
Thanks for your answer!
I was thinking about the difference between caste, jati and varna. Do you have thousands of jatis and just 4 (5) castes, right?
Greetings from Chile!
Elisa
Thank you for this wonderful analysis and break down. I have a question though: Are people every embarrassed or ashamed of the caste they are born into? You’ve explained how they can “move up” in the system, but do people begin at a young age planning how they can get out of the level they were born into or is there a pride and empowerment in all castes? Hope this question makes sense….
Hi Donny,
Thanks for appreciating the analysis and the breakdown. To answer your question.
1. Yes people are ashamed on being born in a particular caste. Especially Untouchables and Sudras. In stead of focusing on the real issue as to why the society is divided and ranked in hierarchy, the blame is put on the individual as if they had a choice on what house they were to be born.
2. No, kids are not planning to move out of the system because no such mechanism exist. When I say that lower castes are trying to move up and break their shackles, I only mean it in the economic, financial and political sense. The most important aspect the social aspect is locked at birth and there is no mechanism for a non caste member to move into that caste. So in effect I am sure there are untouchable kid who know that they are being ill treated because of their caste and realize that if they were of Brahmin caste they would be treated with respect, however they are not scheming or planning on a means to become Brahmins, cause no such means exists. They were born as untouchables, they will live as untouchables and they will die as untouchables. And this in spite of whatever progress they may have made in other fields.
Now some castes (mostly Sudras fall in this group) due to strength in numbers, gaining political power or financial power may be proud of it, but it is superficial they are still lowly as per Hindu religion and will be shown where they stand on the right occasion.
Options that exist to get out of this are
1. Conversion to a different religion where they will be treated better. This is a tricky situation because all religions that have come in contact with Hinduism have also been tainted with caste system. At this point in time Buddhism is the option where we don’t see caste system.
2. Cleaning up Hindu religion and rewriting its doctrine with equality as the basis. This is not possible because the only people who have authority over the books are the Brahmins and they have not reason to change anything. They are not the ones suffering, they are the ones at the top of this social order and are reaping the benefits.
Please let me know if you have more questions.
This is such an informative and well-written article. Yet there still remains some confusion with me, that I can detect in some other comments as well (including Ashish’s rather rude one).
Even though you have gone over this a couple of times in the article and the comments, it feels like there stays something missing in your explanation for us Europeans to be completely able to understand why Sudras and untouchable’s couldn’t just move to a village in a different part of India and lie to pretend to be of a higher caste? In a comment you gave explanations like not having enough money, last name and mannerisms, but these are all changeable aren’t they? You can sort of guess what social class a person is from here in Holland too, but if someone really wanted to pretend to be of a different social class, he could easily pull it off. But for some reason Indians just dont do this? Do they religiously belive in the social class maybe? Would it be blasphemous to them, to deny their caste in the face of god?
I stopped reading at the point where you said: “The second and probably the most important trait of Indian Caste system, is the inability for people to move across castes. An individual is born into a caste. He does not grow to be of a certain caste or move into one which he likes or is capable of, but an individual’s caste is determined at birth, based on the caste of the parents.”
This is probably the case today because society is degraded, but it is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THAT WAY and NEVER was a few thousand of years ago. Remembering that it is Kaliyuga after all – corruption is rife. The caste system is abused to suit unqualified people, and creates havoc in an otherwise smooth running system. If I had to supply an analogy it would be this: Society as a whole is like a body: The head with the brain= QUALIFIED Brahmins, The neck and arms = Kshatriyas – to direct and serve the entire body, the Vaisyas = the digestive system, that must be fed and must in turn nourish the body as a whole, and finally the Sudras – the laborers – the legs of society. Untouchables? Goras? Outcastes? I’m not quite sure how that happened, but I don’t seem to recall it in scripture – it doesn’t seem to fit in with the Eternal Natural Law that predates the WORD hinduism… in other words we don’t practice religion, we practice eternal law – an identification with the soul, so consciousness above the doctrines, restraints and limitation of physical attributes. Non violence or minimal violence at the core. I think when current day indians who believe they are hindu learn and accept their true history and identity, they might stop dividing themselves up according to surnames, location, color, and what not. It is actually petty given the fact that as a united nation you can actually be so much stronger and resilient to some other major crisis that surrounds the sub continent. We are not limited beings, we can transcend the boundaries of birth. In your analogy you try to rationalize not moving across the boundaries, however, many who are not satisfied with something must face the truth of their own nature. Nature changes, it can be moulded, it can adopt other characteristics and it can evolve. So someone born to a lawyer does not become a lawyer by birth does he, ditto for the caste system.
Dear Nemi,
I think you are confusing Jobs with caste. Actually in India if Upper castes had their way, a lawyers son could be a lawyer and they would be the only ones eligible to become one. But since becoming a lawyer involves going to college to study law and also get accepted into the BAR it is not as easy as they would like it would be.
And you mention “it is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THAT WAY and NEVER was a few thousand of years ago.” In the history of Mankind a few thousand years is a lot of time … in fact Jesus was crucified only 2000 years ago. So for all practical purposes if something has been around for a few thousand years, then it has been around forever. And the only people who would feel that it has not been around forever are the upper caste ’cause it doesn’t pinch them. So if you are feeling that way either you are an upper caste Indian or you are a foreigner who doesn’t fully comprehend the issue of caste system and Untouchability. Because I would bet dollars to donuts that if you were to ask this same question to an an untouchable, as to how long they have been enduring this pain and degradation the answer each and every time will be ‘FOREVER’.
I do agree though that to begin with India only had a Varna (occupation based) system and people were free to move across being priests, teachers, trade, trade jobs and such. But as Brahmins realized that they are on the top of the chain, they restricted others from becoming priests or teachers, then the next Varna closed their doors and became their own caste and everybody else below also started to scamper and secure whatever was at their disposal and do note that this securing mechanism was one of endogamy (marrying within their own caste). So in today’s India, if you are born in a caste, you live as that caste and die of that caste. There is no known means to cross caste barriers sans annihilating Caste.
You talk of one day Indians believing that they are Hindu, but the fact of the matter is that they already believe that they are Hindu which in itself is humbug because Hinduism is nothing but a name given to caste system. The Eternal law you talk of is pre Buddha, early Vedic period and not really what the word Hindu means. Hindu as a word came into existence around 12th or 13th century when Arabs needed a word to address everyone on the East of Sind (Indus river) and is a rather derogatory word used in that sense. Brahmins of that time and all the way till pre-Independence never accepted themselves as Hindus. Only when there was a Brahmin & non-Brahmin divide and they found themselves in the minority did they see the advantage of being a Hindu because then it meant that the Brahmin & non-Brahmin divide would go away and they could still sit on top. Also the same reason why they were OK with Gandhi (a Vaishya – third in the Caste Hierarchy) leading the Indian National Congress and the independence movement. Kind of appeasing the general public by not having a Brahmin as the head man.
OK let me now go to the one body concept you also throw in the mix. Ever thought of chopping your leg because it wouldn’t listen to your brain and refused to start a marathon much less complete one, I bet not, and if you were really committed you instead probably nourished it, fed it and conditioned it so that your legs were actually able to complete the marathon. And I bet you would treat your legs with a foot rub after!
Now on the other hand if you were ready to willy-nilly chop of whatever was not following your orders, then it is pretty fair to deduce that it was not probably part of your body and not even something that pricks your conscience. Such is the case with Indian Untouchables. If Indian society really was one body then any atrocity on an other part of the body irrespective of a hand chopping a leg or a leg stubbing its own toe would bring tears to its eyes, in this case the Brahmins as you did mention them as the Head. But contrary to that there is not a peep from those peeps. They run all the newspaper and media companies but don’t seem to have any space for the atrocities metted out to untouchables, they don’t seem to have any space to voice the cries of the female fetuses aborted each day, they don’t seem to have the heart to write about their own widows that are abandoned at so called ashrams – all by products of caste system. In fact these so called qualified brains as you put them can’t even see that they have run the country into the ground. And by the way they run the two major political parties at the center (Indian National Congress and Bharatiya Janata Party) with no policies made to curb caste discrimination, women empowerment or ensuring secularism.
So for all it is worth, show me an upper caste (a Brahmin, a Vaishya or a Kshatriya) shedding a tear when they hear about a young Dalit flogged or rapped and I will be willing to give this one body concept a second hearing.
So there are ways to go before we can think Caste system is a dying fad. Hopefully people like you and other readers here can help this cause a lot by just viewing India without your romantic glasses and try to understand the truth by learning about how its 300 million outcasts conduct their daily lives. So thanks to you and all the readers for being inquisitive and asking probing questions.
Do read the book … THE UNTOUCHABLES WHO WERE THEY AND WHY THEY BECAME UNTOUCHABLES? to get the answer about where Untouchables and Out Castes come from.
Thank you for a well written and informative article. You high school example worked for me, and I feel I have a better understanding of the caste system now.
Thanks for this great article. I totally understand how it wouldn’t be possible to reinvent oneself in a higher caste simply through relocation – I come from the Middle east and I know how exhaustively curious new acquaintances can be with questions. You’d have to avoid intimacy and friendships altogether, unless you were such an accomplished liar that you could invent a whole life story with “other caste” anecdotes and experiences 🙂
Quick question: I’ll admit all my “knowledge” of India comes from books and films, in which the Brahmins are portrayed as the most oppressive to the lower castes. However, it seems to me that the Kshatriyas have been more physically abusive of vulnerable Shudras and outcastes, while the Brahmins avoid contact. Yet the Brahmins are caste as the ultimate villains. Would you say this is correct?
All human-beings are equal in the eyes of God.The human-beings have only created the caste system.There are good and bad people in both high caste as well as low caste.
Ultimately,what matters to God is, whether one is a good person or striving to become one, or not.
One who thinks himself to be of a high caste is actually low. While one who thinks himself/herself to be of low caste is said to be high caste.As per the scriptures, people are known by their nature and the quality of work they perform..
Some stupid people living in India that’s why this country cant be develop anymore as the other countries are well developed. Bcoz indian people live in caste-ism and egoist by nature especially who belong to upper class which is created by themselves not created by God.God only created human being..He didnt put any human in high and low category..This cheap things only created by some mad people itself who live in India..and they be proud by called themselves hindu..I am also hindu but I feel bad when every person who proudly said they are hindu but their thinking is so narrow minded..now its depend on human what they want to become Devil or Angel..Nobody is lower and higher by caste or religion..they become high and low by their behavior..Reservation should be stop itself when you all leave this stupid casteism..Say no caste and no community..All are hindu who live in hindustaan understood..
Hindu (body) four community: brahmin (head) kshatriya (arm) vaishya (belly) shudra (feet) All these four community called as hindu. We all are parts of one body. Without each part our body is not complete. If we lost one part of our body then we become handicap. The human body is the entire structure of a human being. Human Body is considered so loving that God even wants to have it. Spiritual Yogis have found that after going through the 84 millions species this souls get the most dignified human body. So it is the last step to explore the God or to get the view of almighty father god. We know that the soul never dies it takes birth again and again just like as we take new clothes to wear the soul as it takes new body and it is an infinite process. But the body what we get in next birth depend on our karma that has been cited in Gita by Lord Krishna to Arjuna. We all here to perform our duties. Our action makes our destiny and nothing else. The result is in the hand of supreme power. Karma is the seed of plant and if the seed is genuine it must be fruitful.
Many a time, man has taken birth in high caste and low caste; but this does not make him great or low Having been born in high caste man thinks himself to be great and being born in low caste thinks himself to be low and pitiable; both of these states of mind are wrong because many times man has been born in high and low castes. Hence, one should not be proud of having been born in high caste and not feel low if born in low caste family.Greatness has nothing to do with high caste. Man becomes great because of his noble work, exemplary character and becomes loathsome because of his immorality and evil conduct. Thus, it is his conduct only that decides his greatness or lowliness. Who does not know that high family born Ravana, Kansa, Duryodhana and others are censurable; whereas Metarya muni, Harikeshi muni and others, though born in low family, are venerable.Then, what is the importance of high or low caste?
We always talk about religion and castesim but in reality there is no any caste and religion. We all are same our blood are same.then why we believe in discrimination. God never created any caste they made simple human being.. Mentally sick people take the path of fundamentalism and spread casteism and communism. They suffer from inferiority complex and divide the society into “we” and “they”. They (belonging either to higher or lower ranked caste) have a fear in their heart that if they do not get a higher place for themselves in society, “other” people are going to exploit them and going to put them down.They don’t have believe on themselves and their own work. They have doubt own their capability. People with negative mindset suffer from inferiority complex and divide society into compartments like higher castes or lower castes.and can’t tolerate “others” progress or well-being. They cannot work hard and cannot tolerate anybody else’s achievements. These are the people with negative mindset who believe in ranking some belonging to higher castes and/or some to lower castes. They are coward and they are unable to protect themselves…
Whole world think that India has many castes which are main reason of discrimination of people but its very very big misconception of caste system spread around the world to defame culture of India because it was the biggest systematically designed system for people from thousands of years. Now let me tell you what is meaning of varna and caste system in India and how its was started. In Ancient India there were two great saints, one was saint Bhrigu and other was saint Bhardwaj. They met to discuss how to structure a stable society for human being to live proper life, First they recognized the four sources which are:
1. Knowledge 2. Weapons 3. Wealth 4. Land
They decided to make system where nobody has more than one of that. These should not be in one hand, not even two should be in one hand. So those who has knowledge will not have wealth, will not have weapons and will not have lands. Those who will have weapons will rule the country but they will not make policy. They need to go to people having knowledge to seek their permission and advice. Those who are having wealth, their social status will be decided by the how much philanthropy they do not by their wealth. Those who has lands have to produce for the society. In fact none of these four category or “varna” was based on by birth.
i just believe in humanity not this stupid n mad castesim…i want to tell all lower caste people if upper caste against of reservation n some day it ll b stop then u dont need to follow this stupid religion n caste okh…whenever someone ask about ur caste just tell them u r hindu n proudly say u r also brahmin okh….castesim aise hi khatam hogi sabhi brahmin hi bano….or itne intelligent bano or smart bano ki brahmino ko bhi sharm mehsoos ho khudh par….castesim aise hi khatam hogi…jis community ko baar baar lower bola ja raha hai dalit bola ja raha agr wohi community nhi rahi t5b kisko bolenge tb number lagega…kshtriya or vaishya ka…tb pata chalega lower hona kya hota hai..jb reservation nhi toh kya bataoge kya caste hai proudly bolo hum brahmin hai..samjhe..hum hindu hai
God doesn’t need Brahmin priest, god isn’t so narrow minded. god accept everyone. actually Brahmin priest needs god to make money.
“Never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and compassion against injustice and lying and greed. If people all over the world…would do this, it would change the earth.”
All Hindu communities in the country follow the varnashram system of Aryans and have divided the society in four castes – Kshatryas, Brahmins, Vaishyas and Shudras. Sindhis do not have such division in their society. They never followed a rigid caste system. That is why Sindhis are considered to be only businessmen. All members of the society inter-mingle with one another without any consideration of four castes of Aryans. There are no untouchables in Sindhis…..these religion and caste set up by mad and stupid people to control others not by god…who are still mentally sick they are following this castesim blindly..i must say be like all sindhi…tum hindu logo se toh yeh sindhi soh guna ache or intelligent hai..jo jante hai society ko ek kar ke kaise rakhna hai..
Sidd, Thanks for all the information. I myself am from China. But many of my colleagues are Indians. They may from various castes before they came here. But I never saw any of them treats others differently. Can I say they have already rejected the caste idea? Some of them returned back to India after obtaining higher education and degrees with working experiences in IT. If any of them was from untouchable castes, will they be able to hide it because now they behave as an highly educated higher caste person?
Thank you for your interesting article, very helpful.
My question is, when meeting Indians living here in America, is it rude to ask them about their caste and the effect it has had in their lives? Is it rude to ask if their marriage was arranged or ‘Western’ style? I know a visiting Indian is unlikely to respond to such questions with rudeness, but I wouldn’t want to trespass.
It depends on who you ask … in the sense that, if you ask this question and the person you are asking is an Upper Caste person, they will be proud to share it with you. If it is a lower caste person (Sudra or untouchable) then they would cringe that the question is being asked. But a lot will depended on how you ask it, if it is for an educative purpose, Indians will share it albeit per their perspective.
Hey. I just have one question: What if an Untouchable lies? That’s the part I don’t understand. See I’m an American, and a mixed-race one at that (white mother, black father), and I guess because of that I never really technically belonged to one particular group, racially or otherwise. E.g. in your high school analogy, I probably fall into the 5th category, but that’s because I had a good GPA, played on the rugby team, was in the marching band, and did many volunteer hours for my particular program. Maybe with that luxury of being accepted into those groups, I learned how to fit in and be accepted… etc etc. However, the one thing I can’t escape is my race. In USA, as you obviously know, it was skin color that determined status. I guess what I’m confused on, is that I am part of the middle class, which I guess would be our second best analogy besides high school. However, if I wanted to, I could easily pass as either someone from the upper or lower class, just by acting like the members of that class. (I would still be dark-skinned, so technically it only goes so far. I couldn’t pretend to be Bill Gates’ son, because clearly I’m not white.) But anway, what I don’t get is, in a society that all looks the same, is it not a possibility to have “con artist” Untouchables, who adopt the behaviors, way of talking, and way of dress of another class, and when their caste is demanded, they lie. I’ve been doing a bit of rambling, so I’m going to leave the floor to you.
Actually, you really need to believe the middle school analogy, and believe that Indian societies operate like them (middle schools). Can a middle school kid, pose as someone else he is not. If he is a nerd, and is made fun of, can he come back the next day and start posing as one of the football team members? May he can do that and get away with kids from say the arts group, but at some point if he poses as a football player, he will have to play football. or at least be seen with other football players. But then, why would the football players accept him as their own, they may not know who he is, but sure as hell know that he is not one of them. So in this case the individual kid doesn’t matter, the whole package matters. And then of course, when and where do we find a bullied kid, who has the guts to go the opposite way and lie, and act as someone he is not.
Next lets say this kid does realize that he is being bullied here, and he has no escape in this school, he can say, well, I will just go to the other school, across the town, lie, or not, and create a whole new existence. But is it possible? Let’s list out the issues:
1. Can he get on the bus that goes to the other school … maybe
2. Can he get into the school building … maybe
3. Can he get into the classroom … maybe
4. Can he go get a free meal in the cafeteria … maybe
5. Can he look cool and make friends … maybe
Great, but that’s all superficial
1. What will he do for roll call?
2. What will he put his name as when he submits a test?
3. Will he even raise his hand, when he knows an answer?
4. If he gets caught doing something wrong and is called to the principal’s office, who will he cite as his parents? What address will he give?
5. When there is a PTA meeting? What will he tell his parents?
6. When his old school calls up his parents? and asks them where there kid is and they question him that evening, what will he tell them?
Indians are the same way, individual can do nothing on their own, they can’t rent a house, get into college, get a loan, get a spouse, or make any other intimate connections, without being asked:
1. Who is your daddy?
2. What is his caste?
So that’s the difference as to why you can get away with it here, and why you can’t in India. It is the fact that you are a big fat nothing as an individual, and the society is not built to support the individual, but rather the individual is expected, and forced to support the society.