Q2. The second one was more of a comment to Indians who have left India are questioned as to why we rush to decry Hinduism, while showing no such critical thinking to other religions. And also questions us as to What it is that makes us feel morally obligated to blame everything on our past and embrace the western values? Q1. We didn’t have to abolish Christianity/Islam to abolish Slavery/Terrorism – and hence contesting the fact that we don’t need to abolish Hinduism, to get rid of the social evils in India. Short Answer: Christianity and Islam did not create slavery and terrorism, So we don’t have to abolish them to get rid of slavery and terrorism. As for Hindu religion, I do maintain that it did create caste system and demands its existence. Even then please don’t read this statement as a need to abolish Hindu religion. We don’t need to abolish Hindu religion to abolish caste system and Untouchability. All that needs to happen is for the Sudras and Untouchables to leave Hindu religion and find a different religion that will treat them as humans, and just like that caste system will collapse, cause there won’t be the 850 million people accepting the supremacy of Brahmins, other caste Hindus, Hindu Gods and fighting amongst themselves. Long Answer: Not sure where I had mentioned that I wanted to abolish Hindu religion. All I showed was that the practice of arranged marriages, at least in India, has huge drawbacks that greatly surpass any meager benefits it might be able to provide. Then I showed that, the main purpose of arrange marriage is to continue caste system. Then, I showed that caste system is important for Hindus because that is what Hindu religion teaches. And while we may be able to pick a line here and there in the Bhagavad Gita or other religious books which mention that all beings have come from the same God, those very same books also have plenty of material that show that caste system is also of divine origin and hence, has to be maintained at all costs. For a detailed analysis of this topic, I would recommend the article What is wrong with Bhagawad Gita? by Rahul Bhalerao What I did mention in my reply, was that a social revolution akin to what Buddha was able to stir, is needed to get rid of caste system. The goal, which everyone, even upper caste Hindus agree to, is the need to abolish caste system and end untouchability, and the question I have is, how can Hinduism help us in achieving these goals? Can we use Hinduism and its books to mobilize Sudras and Dalits and fight for their equality, in much the same way that civil rights leaders in America used Christianity and the Bible to mobilize blacks and fight for their rights? If anyone wants to say yes, then I would question, as to why Untocuhability still exists in India – India Untouched. I would question as to where those Hindu spiritual leaders are, who are trying to get rid of Untocuhability and what success they have achieved so far? I see bill boards in India which portray an AIDS patient and a Movie star that read “This man has AIDS, but it is OK to touch him” but I don’t see any which portray a Dalit and a spiritual leader and read “This man is a Dalit, he has no disease and it is OK to touch him”?. So I am yet to see proof of Hindu leaders doing their best to eradicate untouchability. Anyways, further prodding will only prove that, not only can we not use Hindu religion to abolish caste system, but it will actually stand in our way of achieving that goal. Contrary to whatever view of Hinduism, the few progressive Hindus might have, the philosophy of Hinduism and its foundation is based on caste system. Its practical purpose and need is to maintain caste system. To prove this point without having to pore ourselves over volumes, lets consider what’s common across all Hindus all over India and see if this study will suffice. Gods – Different people across India pray to different Gods, Kali in Calcutta, Ram in the North, Lord Venkateshwara in the state of Andhra Pradesh, Lord Shiva in some parts, Murugan in some parts of South India and Krishna in others, to name just a few. And then there are instances where Hindus even pray to Pirs (saints of the Muslim religions). So its not one God that binds all Hindus together.
Customs – Different Hindus have different rules for Birth, naming the child, some burn their dead, some bury their dead, and actually I personally know of some castes from my state that bury their dead sitting! And the differences in dressing are as varied too, not just across regions but also across castes in the same region Traditions – South Indians prefer marrying within the extended family, they marry cousins, North Indians don’t. Some castes demand dowry, some volunteer – Library of Congress
Festivals – Different regions have different festivals for different reasons. Those who may be working with Indian vendors can relate to it. Their Teams in Bangalore may be having a day off for a festival, when someone in Noida (Delhi) are not, then some in Hyderabad or Bangalore have a different holiday on a different day. And I am not talking different holidays by religion. But just Hindu festivals which are celebrated in one area but evoke no excitement in a different area, and in some cases are not even heard of in other areas. And even in an instance where, a festival is celebrated on the same day, it could still mean different things to different Hindus, the festival of Dusserah in Calcutta means Kali puja, in Lucknow it means Ram leela, elsewhere people are celebrating the return of Pandavas after exile. So Hindus across India don’t even celebrate the same festivals.
Books – Hindus don’t have ‘A Book’, what they have are books, and which book applies where, is at the mercy of the Brahmins who have all rights over them. Most Hindus I bet, don’t even have any of these books at home. Sudras and Untouchables are prohibited from having these books. The only time I ever saw the ‘Bhagavad Gita’ was in the movies when a witness was asked to place their hand on it and swear to tell the truth and the whole truth! So in effect, there is no one common book(s) and 85% of Hindus have not even seen or held a real copy of the most commonly hailed one, the ‘Bhagtavad Gita’. Legal Definition – The differences are so many that even Indian Constitution had to go in a round about way of defining to who all Hindu Law applies (Source: http://voiceofdharma.org/books/wiah/ch3.htm#2)
“Legal definition of Hindu
3.1. Hindu law
India’s Constitution does not give a definition of the term Hindu, but it does define to whom the Hindu Law applies.
(a) to any person who is a Hindu by religion in any of its forms and developments, including a Virashaiva, a Lingayat or a follower of the Brahmo, Prarthana or Arya Samaj,
(b) to any person who is a Buddhist, Jain or Sikh by religion, and
(c) to any other person domiciled in the territories to which this Act extends who is not a Muslim, Christian, Parsi or Jew by religion” For the purpose of this discussion the important point is that, even Indian Constitution has not been able to give a definition of the term Hindu, And in trying to define, as to who all the Hindu Law applies, it couldn’t say that it applies to Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs and HINDUS. It had to use an inclusion and exclusion method … very evident in point (c) which says that Hindu Law will apply, to those who are not Muslims, Christians, Parsis or Jews. Indian constitution had no chance of defining a Hindu, Cause unlike a Christian – one who follows Bible, believes in Christ, unlike a Muslim – One who follows the Koran and believes in Prophet Mohammed, there is no one thing or one God that all Hindus believe in nor is there one book(s) that they follow. This topic has been thoroughly addressed by Dr. Ambedkar in his book – Riddles in Hinduism and Riddle of Rama and Krishna (shortened version of Riddles in Hinduism). But beyond these diversities, if we further analyze Hindu society … we can figure out that, all Hindus, irrespective of where in India they are from, what books they believe in, whether they bury or burn their dead, marry among cousins or not, believe in one thing, and that is the authenticity and irrevocable nature of caste system, a social system with Brahmins on top, followed by Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Sudras and then the untouchables. So ideally Indian constitution, if it wanted to, could define a Hindu as someone who is not of x, y, z religions but follows Caste system. Don’t think it would be appropriate though, cause the constitution is supposed to abolish caste system. So hopefully this has reaffirmed the fact that, while we may have few instances of inter caste marriages, noble folks who treat all people equally, caste system is the norm and the only bond that defines Hindus across India and even beyond. And if this be the case, then reforming Hinduism is not rewriting a para or two but an overhaul of the whole foundation of Hindu religion, pretty much inventing a new religion while retaining the old name, Hinduism. To put it into perspective, it is like removing the birth of Christ, his discourses to his followers, his crucifixion and resurrection and still naming the ensuing religion Christianity! Lets say in spite of this set back, we follow the lead given in the comment, and want to forge ahead and reform Hindu religion, then the questions we are left with are: 1. Who can reform this religion and what is their propensity and need to do so?
2. Who can’t reform this religion and what are their options? The only folks who can reform Hindu religion are the upper castes, specifically Brahmins, they have written the books and they have all rights over them. Non-Brahmins don’t even understand the language the books are written in. What is their propensity to reform Hindu religion? Slim to none. What is the need for them to reform Hindu religion? None. In fact quiet the contrary, they actually would want the caste system left untouched. By keeping caste system intact, they remain on top and Vaishyas and Kshatriyas can share in on the spoils. Coming to who can’t reform the religion, it is the Sudras and Untouchables, who form the 85% of Hindu population and the worst affected by the caste system. And as mentioned they haven’t even seen the book. So what are they to do? Option1: They can wait for the Brahmins to reform Hindu religion. Option2: They can leave Hindu religion to its fate and move on to other favorable religions. And it will be to the benefit of my fellow Sudra and Dalit brethren to realize the futility of option1 and embrace option2. They need to realize that staying Hindu is the real problem.To believe in the superiority of the Brahmins and their own inferiority, Sudras and Dalits need to be Hindus, the moment they cease to be Hindus, they are done away with their servitude. While, it might take a couple of generation to see tangible physical, economical and social benefits, the spiritual and psychological relief is immediate. And when this happens, all that will be left of Hindus is Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas, all twice born, who intermingle, might even inter-marry and overall can fairly cope with each other. And at that point if they want to reform their religion, good for them, they will have the well wishes from the rest of us all. So yeah! we didn’t have to abolish Christianity to abolish Slavery, and we don’t have to abolish Islam to stop terrorism (this phrase connecting Islam and terrorism is straight from the comment, I am not the one tying Islam and terrorism), and we definitely don’t need to abolish Hindu religion. In fact, we don’t even need to reform it. If the purpose is to emancipate the down trodden, then it can be easily achieved by them just leaving the Hindu fold – And there in lies there path to Salvation. Q2. The second comment talked to Indians who have left India and questioned as to why we rush to decry Hinduism while showing no such critical thinking to other religions. And also questions us as to What it is that makes us feel morally obligated to blame everything on our past and embrace the western values? To begin with I don’t know of any other Indians that have left India, settled abroad that are talking about the topic of Caste system and Untocuhability. Most of them are from upper caste and if anything they want to deny that anything of that sort even exists. As for the lower castes, they seem to want to hide themselves behind their new found society, riches and status and want to stay completely oblivious to the issues there fellow lower castes are facing. And all I can say is that if Indian continue with this attitude they have another thing coming! It is only a matter of time that the caste monster will raise its ugly head even in the western world! Readers can already see this is in UK – CasteWatchUK.org Anyways, coming back to me, yes, I have left India, yes I have settled in the US, but to say that I have not given any critical thought to other religions, that I don’t agree. I am not sure how, and in what way I can be critical of other religions when it comes to caste system and untouchability. Those religions did not create the problem of caste system and untouchability. I only refer to these other religions to compare and contrast them with Hindu religion and also to help my non-Indian readers grasp some of the concepts. In this particular case I used the quotes from the Bible to just show the power religion has over man, that it can even make a man sacrifice his own children. I think my analysis of the problem of arranged marriages and its drawbacks would have been the same whether I used analogies from the Bible or not. Only Hindu religion has created and preached this way of dividing the society, so I can only decry Hinduism. Now the last thing asked is at to what makes me morally obligated to blame everything on our past and embrace western values: For one, I am not in the past, I am talking caste system and untouchability of present day India and the way religion is supporting it even today. If this were a thing of past, I think I am a pretty reasonable guy and would have agreed that the right thing to do is to bury the hatchet. The reason readers seem to follow what I write is because of how current the practice of arranged marriage is, how pertinent caste system is, and how evident Untocuhability is in the so called modern India. The only thing, tying this to the past, is the fact that this caste based discrimination existed then, it exists today and by virtue of Hindu religion will exist in the future. So I am not blaming the past, I am only showing what is happening today, an India that not many are exposed to. And the final trump card that all critics use: why do I embrace western values, not sure where this came from. In all of the post, if anything, I have preached Indian values, as in values and options, strictly born and brought up in India. I have only suggested that Sudras and Dalits see their savior in the Buddha. I don’t think it can get anymore Indian than that. Buddhism is the only great Indian philosophy that spread through out the world. I have only asked Indians to seek the knowledge shared by Dr. Ambedkar and seek refuge in Buddha. If you want to really criticize western influence in India, then we need to start with the Aryans who came into India 3000 years ago. We need to denounce the Hindu religion that they brought along with them. We need to annihilate the caste system that they have established. That is where we will need to start. True Indians need to expel Hinduism from every cell of their body and embrace Buddhism. If anyone still has doubts about Hindu religion being the cause of caste system and ensuing havoc, what I ask of them are the following questions:
- If it is not the preservation of caste system, what other justification is there for the practice of arranged marriages? And the answer better trump all the drawbacks of arranged marriages that I was able to show in my post
- If it is not religion, then what is the power that is forcing Hindu parents to kill their own children when they marry someone outside their caste?
- If Hindu religion is the religion of equality and liberty then how come there are no converts into it?
- If an outsider were to convert to Hindu religion who would his/her kids marry? Would they be considered Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, Sudras or untouchables? Would their family be able buy this advertised house?
SUDRA VIDIO PICTHER
read at B R Ambedkar Quotes